Quote from name:private_parts
Quote from MillenniumArmy
Private_parts, you seem to be baffled about how anyone can consider this God loving or just.
- God made very clear to Adam and Eve not to eat from a certain tree, otherwise they will be banished from the Garden. They ended up eating an apple from that tree, and as a result that is where sin entered the world. It's so simple: do. not. eat. from the tree or you WILL suffer the consequences, that is a Just God. Do not get "just" and "cruel" confused.
- God made very clear to Adam and Eve not to eat from a certain tree, otherwise they will be banished from the Garden. They ended up eating an apple from that tree, and as a result that is where sin entered the world. It's so simple: do. not. eat. from the tree or you WILL suffer the consequences, that is a Just God. Do not get "just" and "cruel" confused.
A God who was not cruel would not even place the tree there. Nor would such a God create a bunch of lesser creatures and then force them to obey his own rules or suffer. Perhaps you and I have a different definition of cruel? From what I can see, your God is a sadist...
- A cruel god would create a bunch of lesser creatures and force them into unscrupulous situations and declare that they obey his own rules or suffer when they never deserved it in the first place
Neither case is that of the Christian God. Now unless you're talking about certain other views like that of the Westboro Baptist Church...
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Quote from MillenniumArmy
- The Egyptians enslaved the Israelites for years. Treated them like shit, beat them up, killed many of their babies. Horrible stuff. God sent Moses to tell the Pharaoh to put an end to all this atrocity, otherwise they will be punished. Pharaoh refused. So the first plagued happened, Pharaoh still refused, then the second came, it took ten to wake Pharaoh up and realize what he was doing is wrong. This is the work of a Just God, all the guy had to do was follow a simple and very doable thing, but no he chose to do it the hard way..
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Second, it is just another case of the barbaric thinking back then. The Egyptians are hurting people, so we will hurt them back even harder! And not only that, but God punishes everyone else for the Pharaohs own stubbornness, punishes innocents. Nowhere in today's morality will you find anyone advocating the transference of punishment from the wicked to the innocent, it is completely backward... Killing a hundreds of first borns for the actions of one man is NOT what an omnibenevolent creature would do. But, as I said with Jack - if you are holding the question of omnibenevolence 'off the table' - then you HAVE to justify absolutely everything he does as somehow being good, no matter how wicked it actually is...
Also, regarding the first borns. First nobody knows for sure if every one of these people were all innocent and innocuous. Like I said it's possible they could've been brainwashed by their parents. Second, sure the Egyptian first borns may have died but think about how many Israelite first borns the egyptians killed annually. Historians have said that the ratio of Egyptian first borns killed to a few years worth of Israelite first born deaths is about 1:40. Even killing ALL the egyptians at the time wouldn't have equaled the cumulative number of deaths the Israelites suffered - your assertion that "the Egyptians are hurting people, so we will hurt them back even harder" is invalid because God actually went pretty easy on these people. Third and more importantly, when innocents die, they aren't being punished at all, thus god wouldn't be sending these people to hell. There's this whole issue of the "age of understanding" theologians talk about everyday.
You have yet to show me an example of where God murders innocent people for no reason at all. Please show me examples in the Bible and I'll tell you why God did what he did.
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Quote from MillenniumArmy
- Ok, since we "chose" to sin, that means we're all doomed to hell and we're going to suffer like no other? How malicious! No, like Jack said, sending His son to take our punishment for us is a sign of love.
I could give more examples, but I don't want to waste any more time.
Quote from John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I could give more examples, but I don't want to waste any more time.
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Quote from MillenniumArmy
"But wait, why didn't he just simply say 'you are all forgiven' and be done like that?"
Because he wants us to choose to love him, to have a relationship with him. Otherwise, we'd be like robots who do everything as he commands. That's not love, love is a choice. And do not get "just" and "malevolence" mixed up. He is a just God in that he makes it clear what the ramifications are if we choose not to accept him. "Wait so God is blackmailing us into having to believe in him!" No, he just asks us to do something so simple. I could go on, but I highly doubt you'll read or care any further.
Because he wants us to choose to love him, to have a relationship with him. Otherwise, we'd be like robots who do everything as he commands. That's not love, love is a choice. And do not get "just" and "malevolence" mixed up. He is a just God in that he makes it clear what the ramifications are if we choose not to accept him. "Wait so God is blackmailing us into having to believe in him!" No, he just asks us to do something so simple. I could go on, but I highly doubt you'll read or care any further.
"HMMM - I want to forgive everyone of their transgressions conditionally."
"How should I do this...?"
"I know - I will send a portion of myself down to planet Earth, and then get myself killed, and then bring myself back to life. Yeah, that'll do the trick"
"Ha yes, my plan worked perfectly. Now I will set up the condition being you have to believe in me and/or follow a certain amount of commandments (different sects of Christianity differ here), and if they don't do that - then I'm sending them to Hell!"
It is just so silly.... He could have done the same thing without the sacrifice - he's omnipotent! He could have beamed his message of love into everyones brains, he could have written his statement of forgiveness in blazing fire across the sky, he could have gone around personally hugging everyone. But he does nothing of the sort, he has it be a violent act of murder followed by a nonsensical resurrection.
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To someone who is not already believing in God and trying to justify these things after the fact - it is just so laughably obvious that the story is wrong. Even as a work of fiction - ugh, its a terrible story.
Quote from rayNimagi
If God is omniscient and omnipotent, he has the power to do anything and everything.
If God is omnibenevolent, he never lets anything bad happen in the world.
Bad things happen in the world.
Therefore, God is either:
A) not omniscient, and/or
B) not omnipotent, and/or
C) not omnibenevolent, and/or
D) God has a different definition of "good" than the Bible does.
As I said before, it's possible for a non-omnipotent God to exist. But the real world... let's say... "disproves"... the God of the Bible.
...
If God is omnibenevolent, he never lets anything bad happen in the world.
Bad things happen in the world.
Therefore, God is either:
A) not omniscient, and/or
B) not omnipotent, and/or
C) not omnibenevolent, and/or
D) God has a different definition of "good" than the Bible does.
As I said before, it's possible for a non-omnipotent God to exist. But the real world... let's say... "disproves"... the God of the Bible.
...
None.